On practicing smarter and violin vs. viola, with Liz and Steph from MusicianCentric
This blog post accompanies Violin Class Podcast Episode 46. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, iHeartRadio, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Guest interview with Liz and Steph from MusicianCentric Podcast
Joining me this week are fellow musicians and podcasters Liz and Steph, who host MusicianCentric podcast.
In this podcast episode, we discuss:
Viola vs. violin -
What careers look like for professionals
How to approach sound production
The challenges of switching from violin to viola
How professional musicians think about practicing
Teaching adults vs. children
How to practice musicality and the importance of singing
New research in practice strategies, such as interleaved practice
You can listen to MusicianCentric podcast here.
Transcript
This transcript was created by AI, so there may be some errors.
Liz: if your technique, is not where you need it to be, then you cannot achieve the artistry that you want. You're, you're thinking, Oh, I sound terrible. I don't, don't sound good at all. When you hit a breakthrough in your technique, then you are able to achieve a thing in artistry that you wanted to achieve.
Julia: This week on violin class, I am joined by two musician and podcasting colleagues, Liz and Steph, who are both freelance violist and host of the podcast, musician centric.
We discuss a whole array of different subjects this week including the differences between the violin and the Viola, because I know at least a few of you listeners are Viola lists. So we discuss what careers look like for professional violas versus violinists, the approach in sound creation and practice and what it's like to switch from one instrument to the other.
You'll also learn how professional musicians think about practicing and what it's like teaching adults versus children.
If you're a regular listener, you'll already know a little bit about my own philosophy when it comes to practicing. And although we have a lot of overlaps there are things that Stephan Liz do differently than I do. So I think it will be really interesting to hear a different perspective and hopefully we'll give you some ideas to take to the practice room as well.
Liz and Steph also share some really practical tips on how to practice musically, the importance of singing and most interestingly, they share some new research in practice strategies some subjects that have been featured on the musician centric podcast. And I think that no matter your level, you're going to learn some things that you can take back to your own practice sessions.
/ But first welcome to the violin class podcast. My name is Julia. I'm a violinist and violin teacher who specializes in working with adult learners?
This podcast is for anyone who's learning the violin as an adult. I share the things that I want my own private violin students to know, and is intended to help make learning the violin a little bit easier.
I also teach online. So if you are looking for a regular teacher or just a couple of one-off lessons, you can contact me a violin class pod@gmail.com. Or through my website@violinclass.co.
Julia: We'll be referencing quite a few. Subjects in this episode. So if you would like the links to that, make sure that you're signed up to the violin class newsletter.
You can get that for free at violin class.co/newsletter, I send an email out with every new episode. And lastly, make sure you check out the musician acentric podcast. It is geared towards professional players, but I think it will be really interesting and relevant for adult learners, even beginners as well, because not only are you going to get a behind the scenes, look as to what it's like to be a professional in this industry. They share so much valuable and practical advice that can be applicable at any level.
So I will link some of my favorite episodes down in the show notes. Make sure to check it out.
Without further ado. Let's get into my discussion with Liz and Steph.
Julia: Thank you so much for joining me, , so I've got Liz and Steph with me today. Both of them are the host of the , Musician Centric Podcast. Can you tell me about the podcast and a bit more about what you do? Sure.
Stephanie: Yeah. So,, the short slash long version of the story is that the pandemic happened. Liz and I are both freelance musicians who also teach a little bit on the side. And, when the pandemic happened, we saw all of our work completely disappear.
It was absolutely gone. And we got together several times just to kind of take walks and talk about. You know, commiserate about our situation. And, at one of those on my back porch, we just said, we were having these great conversations and we were like, you know what, we should record these conversations because.
Everybody needs to hear what we're saying. You know, it's just one of those like really self centered moments that you have where you're like, what I'm saying is like super important. Anyway, so we decided to start and at that time it was the viola centric podcast because we're both violists. And, um, since then we've kind of evolved with the podcast and with our guest selection.
And so now we're talking to all different kinds of musicians and about our freelance careers, their freelance careers, what we love about the business, what we all could learn. to help ourselves become more flexible in our careers. And, um, yeah, Liz, what do you think? What do you have to add? I,
Liz: well, that's a pretty good description, I think, of, of the origin story, but I will also pepper in there.
for those of you that will appreciate this, um, for the introverts and extroverts out there in the world. So, um, I am, I'm, I'm extremely extrovert, extroverted. I'm, uh, an ENFP for those Myers Briggs fans out there. And, um, very chatty, and I have no problem talking and talking and talking. I also really like to listen, which is a good
thing.
Stephanie: She's a great listener.
Liz: It's a good balance. But when we started these conversations together, um, you know, we were talking about a lot of the things that Actually, and I mean to go on the opposite side of things, the things that weren't working great for us in our careers, the things that made us uncomfortable, the things that we struggled with, and the space during the pandemic created an opportunity for us to see how maybe we can let some of that go.
And find new approaches, new avenues to, um, our careers that would be more fulfilling and more joyful, ultimately more joyful. And so we left this one day and we were going to start a concert series, which we, we had a very brief live stream concert. We did it a couple of times. We did it exactly two times.
It was a great time, but as I was leaving, I was thinking to myself, this would all make a great podcast. But I didn't say anything because I am so extroverted. And I thought Stephanie is a far more, like, she's just reserved composed. Like it's, it's so impactful when she shares her thoughts because she keeps them Close to the vest until it's time and I thought I'm not gonna put that on her because if I do that That's just like gonna be pressure and I don't want to do that to her So I get home and sure enough.
I have a text from Steph that says I think we should do a podcast. I was like, Oh my God, I was thinking the same thing. And, um, I think what's been beautiful about it for us is that as we've gotten back to work, as we've gotten back into the gigging life, both of us are really active performers. Do all of the usual stuff that you might associate with a freelance musician career.
Um, we have had this opportunity to continue to ground ourselves in conversations with people who are forward focused, who have the big picture in mind, who really work at not getting stuck in the scarcity mindset weeds that tend to happen to us as musicians. Particularly as independent contractors out in this world.
And, um, and our friendship that's evolved. We are great partners in business. We balance each other out in a lot of ways. Um, but our friendship has been just such a gift because we did this thing together. So it's, um, yeah, it's been really cool. Really cool.
Julia: Oh, that's wonderful. It's so cool that you guys both had that interest and you're able to do it together.
Cause as you know, as fellow podcasters, it's a lot of work. And so having someone to bounce off ideas and just, hang out , that's why I like to do interview episodes it's a lot more fun and get to meet people.
people. I'd love to maybe circle back to that later with the scarcity mindset. That's, I think, one of your latest episodes I was listening to.
Stephanie: I feel like we talk about that every other episode. It's one of those things that's a constant struggle, you know, as a musician, anything, I mean, in this life and in this capitalistic Society that we live in, everything's built on scarcity.
You know, pricing is built on scarcity. The job market is built on scarcity. And especially in the freelance world, it can be built on scarcity. So it's, it's a through line in a lot of our conversations. And it's a, it's one of those epic struggles that, you know, each day, you practice a little bit less, and hopefully over time you evolve to a comfortable place with that.
Julia: As far as your careers, you're both violists. What are the differences between, , career opportunities and what your freelance life looks like compared to a violinist, , if any?
Liz: Oh,
Stephanie: that's a good question. That's interesting. Yeah. Um, well, I started on violin, actually, and then after I graduated college, I switched over to viola 100%.
Oh, wow, the late switcher. So yes, and Liz is completely different.
Liz: I started out on viola when I was nine years old and heard it played and it, you know, it was just like, from the start. Um, career wise, That, I like this question a lot, um, it's interesting because you might think that because there are less, technically less positions available, like, you know, in an orchestra, for example, you have two sections of violins and in viola, you have one.
And sometimes there are eight of us, 10 of us, 12 of us. Um, I actually think there is more ample freelance work for violists because there are less of us. I don't know if that has stayed the same, and I wish I had, like, statistics to share about this information. I'm always curious about, like, the demographics of, of our work, and there's just, frankly, there's no research that's been done about this, which is why we don't know.
Um, but I do feel like as, as, As a violinist out there in the world. I, I, I get the sense it's far more competitive. You know, if you have an audition, there's a exponential number more of violinists that are gonna show up to take that audition than there are violists. And so, um, maybe just a little bit a, a little bit more easy, I hate to say that 'cause I feel like.
You know, there's that trope about viola being easier than violin, which is not true. I think it's so much harder.
Stephanie: Well, yeah, it's interesting that you say that. I think every instrument is hard in its own way. Yes. And the music kind of shows that, right? So, Violinists, I, I have played both and I teach both and I will say that violin feels like a toy in my hand when I am playing violin because everything is comparatively, I'm not saying that it's easier, it's easier.
It feels easier. Viola is a much more physical instrument. Yes, the technique is the same, but the sound production, yes, you can do the same things that you could do on violin, but it requires a lot more physicality and effort. It's a bigger instrument and the reach is further. So if you think your left hand On violin is, you know, you're supporting it at a much closer angle and on viola, you're extending your arm pretty far out to hold a heavier instrument and do those same things further from your body.
So in my experience, it's more challenging physically and so the music has to be a little bit less demanding.
Liz: Yeah, that's a great way to put it. There's like the facility issue is huge, which is why, you know, there, I do feel like my biggest personal struggle as a violist, and it's because of starting out on viola, is that I struggle playing fast passages that require a lot of dexterity, you know, just quick maneuvering around the instrument.
That's always been the thing that I struggle the most with. Creation of sound for me comes very naturally. Although I will also say this is like my little mantra. And I always tell this to kids when I'm working with them or any student, really, that we play tiny cellos. We don't actually play big violins.
And that changes the approach significantly because you, you realize that there's, there is a, uh, as Stephanie said, there's an effort you have to put into the instrument in order to create the sound you're looking for that you just simply don't need to do on the violin. Um, in my very, very minimal experience playing violin, I was like, Oh, that just comes right out, doesn't it?
The
Stephanie: reaction time is some of the biggest, the biggest difference for me. Like you picture, you can like breathe on the violin string and go, and it makes a beautiful sound right away. And on viola, there's, um, a preparation that needs to happen. before the sound. Like your string, your bow has to be on the string and there has to be weight in it before you even think about making a sound.
Yeah. And that's a lot different than playing violin. It's that prep, it's that mental split second extra preparation to be on time. That's why violists always get, get told that we're late. Yeah, we are. Because, because it takes You have to be ahead of things always always always
Julia: that's super interesting.
I've heard this a similar thing I did a semester on viola in college, which I found so challenging, just the tuning and the sound production, especially. And, as you guys were saying, the, the weight of the instrument, I struggled with injury and just a lot of tension in my early undergrad studies.
And that just, I think like threw me off of the deep end. but I learned a lot about playing violin playing viola because when you're approaching the string like that, something in my hand, just organized itself, bowing wise.
So, Steph, I'm interested in what were the biggest challenges for you switching since you can probably remember it pretty, um, pretty clearly since you, you switched after completing your undergrad in violin.
Stephanie: Yeah, well, I actually did, I did one or two pieces on my senior recital in undergrad on viola because I was just really interested in exploring it.
And at that time, I don't think I really appreciated the differences. I think I thought of it as a big, like Liz said, like, as a big violin. And I was just like, Oh, okay. All I gotta do is read a new clef. So that was at the time, the hardest obstacle was taking these things, these skills, these techniques that I had honed on violin and translating them to a different clef.
And like, what does this mean now? Where are my hands now? They're not in the same place. And that was the hardest part for me. But then later on realizing that it's not the same sound production wise. That was a big learning curve. And I honestly, I think we're all still kind of struggling with our own little things that we perceive as imperfections about our playing.
And I am still every day thinking about sound production. And what I could do differently. So,
Liz: yeah,
Julia: so for all of the, uh, beginners out there listening, it's not just you. It never ends. No, it never ends. Not in intonation.
Stephanie: It never ends. And there's, uh, I've been listening to this podcast, um, called Working It Out with Mike Brabiglia.
Ira Glass, and I, well, Ira Glass is his guest on a couple of episodes and he's from This American Life, if you all don't know who Ira Glass is, um, and they were talking about art and the idea of making art and, and, And Ira Glass has this really famous quote about how the gap between your standards and where you are is the thing that you're trying to close all the time.
You know, you're trying to close this gap. Well, it never really closes because your standards always become higher. Yeah. And, um, Many people give up in that gap.
Liz: Yeah. This is, this reminds me, somebody said something really interesting once that stuck with me and I've, I think I've witnessed it in my own life as a musician too, that there's like these, I mean, very grossly put, there's these sort of two categories that we're really always working on.
And one is technique and one is artistry. And on the one hand, if your technique, is not where you need it to be, then you cannot achieve the artistry that you want. You're, you're thinking, Oh, I sound terrible. I don't, don't sound good at all. When you hit a breakthrough in your technique, then you are able to achieve a thing in artistry that you wanted to achieve.
All of a sudden you're like, I sound amazing. Like I've hit my goal. I've hit my goal, you know? And it's so amazing because then as Stephanie said, it's a moving target. You get there and you're like, all right, now I want to be able to do it. This, and I want to be able to do this, this much better. What's that going to entail?
And it's just like that constant, constant moving of the, I, I assume we're never done with that.
Stephanie: I hope not.
Liz: I hope we're never done.
Stephanie: That is one big difference I find teaching adults and teaching children. The children haven't really developed their idea of what they want to sound like. Adults have been listening to this all their life.
So they already have. This really advanced idea of what they want to sound like. And they're starting at the same beginner level. These kids are, so it's very frustrating. And so if I were to say anything to your adult listeners, it's don't give up. And you are making so much more progress than you think you are.
You just have to realize that your standards are so high, which is wonderful, but don't give up because you're progressing. Even if you don't hear it in your own sound.
Julia: I'm sure there's someone that needed to hear that today. I find that the the trickiest position to be in as an adult learner is for the people that played at a very high level, maybe stopped mid high school, and then are picking it back up in like their 30s or 40s.
Because they already have all that foundation of listening and then probably Classical music or any violin music is a big part of their life. They're going to orchestra concerts and just like informing their ear for all those years in between. And then they come back to it and there's all of this kind of undoing of the technical problems that they already had, probably there was something where they had hit a wall.
They have to now figure out how to get over that wall, but that standard is just. so high. And if you can make it past, like, generally the first year, I find is the most challenging, mentally when it comes to pushing through that. But if you can make it there, then you're the world's your oyster, because as you said, they progress a lot faster than kids.
The other thing that I really love about working with adults is that the artistic vision that you were, you guys were talking about there is already there. Like, they're naturally. They come to this very musical, they know what they want to say, they just don't yet have the tools to say it, and that's why we work so much on technique, I think a lot more in some ways than with kids because they have a vision and we just have to kind of figure out how we can make that happen.
Liz: That's great. I had not thought about that before, but that's so true, I mean, especially when you start a student who's seven, eight, nine years old, they have no idea. They're just Put your instrument in their hands and yeah, yeah, you're, you're introducing them to every concept and I do find myself teaching musicality maybe more than I should, which is why, you know, I don't teach a whole lot, but Cause you know, you need the technique in order to do these things, but they don't have those formed opinions.
And, um, yeah, in, in my limited experience with adult learners, I feel the exact same way. That's such, it's such a good way to put it, Julia. Yeah.
Stephanie: Yeah, I would also say though, try not to get bogged down in technique. Yes, it's a tool that you need and we can obsess over little things, but ironically, the musicality in, I would say about 75 percent of the problems that I have are musicality related and that once you get the musicality figured out, the technique will come later.
It will kind of resolve itself. I don't, you have to be able to think a phrase before you can play a phrase, right? You have to, that's the way that we work. We have to think of things, even if you don't realize it before you speak, you are thinking what you're going to say, even if it's just nanoseconds beforehand, the same thing has to happen in music.
So you have got to have an idea of what you want it to sound like before you play. And honestly, I think that that's something anybody at any level. can do and work with and it will take them, um, pretty far.
Julia: That is such great advice and that's definitely something I'm guilty of both as a teacher and a performer or a practicer rather as just, you know, getting.
As you were saying with the technique, especially intonation, we get as string players, we get so stuck on that, but I'm curious as teachers, what are your guys's strategies, or even just in the practice room for, uh, for working on musicality? Because I think for a lot of adults, adult learners especially.
It can feel very abstract. And some people even will think like either you have it or you don't, but, you know, as we know, it's something that you can develop over time and a lot of the times it's away from the instrument too. So I'm curious what your guys approach is to that.
Liz: Well, I was, I was thinking the whole time that Stephanie was sharing that, that advice, which is great advice.
I am a, Um, well, I, I mean this is, this might be helpful information for listeners too. I was diagnosed A DHD late in life. Um, I was just diagnosed about three years ago and it made so many things about my own journey through preparing a musical career and going through this world. Um. It just helped put a lot of puzzle pieces together for me.
And it's still something I'm kind of figuring out how to navigate. Um, it's like just a day by day process, like understanding that my brain just may not work in a very traditional way and, and how to navigate those things. But I say that I share this because it's important for me to share before I say what I'm about to say.
I'm not a good practicer. I've never been a good practicer. I've never been a consistent practicer. Um, It is very challenging for me. to sit in a room alone and dissect music. Um, I have always needed the experience of playing with other people in order to understand what I do best. So now, of course, there are all these tools out there online, um, apps that can give you accompaniment at home, apps that can play a drone for you.
Like there's so many things that you can do so that you're not alone in your practice room. So if you are anything like me, guys, that, that's very helpful. But. All of this musicality came from trial and error in rehearsals with my quartet, you know, just playing over and over again until I understood the way I wanted something to sound.
Now it happens, of course, it's been years in the making, it happens much more organically, but sitting and reading with people, that's like one of the best ways to become a good musician. So to answer your question as a teacher, I do a lot of duet work with my students. I play with them a lot and Um, accompany them.
I have them accompany me and I just kind of get them out of that technique mindset and into, you know, just making the music. Then if we run into trouble, as Steph said, then we'll talk about, okay, what's the thing you need to practice in order to make that happen? You know, and I think that is the most effective way for me, um, to learn is, you know, experiential all the way.
Julia: That's great. What about you, Steph?
Stephanie: I would say, musicality wise, I'm a big proponent of singing. And I think we can do lots of things with our voice that we can emulate in our playing. So, whenever I think through a phrase, even if it's like, Mary had a little lamb, whatever. Singing it through. while noticing what you're doing with your voice, where the important notes are in that phrase, and then making some kind of attempt to like shape it in that way.
So like, Mary had a little lamb, little lamb, little lamb. That's like the very first phrase, right? What's the most important thing in that phrase? Mary had a little lamb, little lamb, little lamb. It's that first little lamb, right? And so when you get, when you're doing that on your violin, you are building towards that first little lamb, and then you're coming away just exactly the way that you would sing it.
There's a lot to learn from vocalists in what we do. But every phrase that you have It's kind of like breaking it down into those musical ideas and if you can just identify what's the most important note of this phrase, that can give, tell you a lot about musicality.
Julia: That's great. Yeah. Singing is super important, especially with string instruments that are fretless.
It helps with Intonation. Intonation. Wow. And it's, you don't have to be a good singer. I'm certainly not a good singer at all. All I can basically do is hold a pitch more or less in tune and that's all you need really. And it's something that can be practiced too, you know, I tell my students like just sing in the shower where no one's listening to you and you'll sound good as echoey and you just get more and more comfortable with it, and it helps a lot.
Yeah.
Liz: And you know, helping to, helping students to identify the shapes of the phrases through singing, and even also, um, I do a lot of times, I'll, I'll, like, a super early player, maybe in Suzuki Book 2, is playing a piece of music, and I'll say, can you play for me what you think the first phrase is?
Just play
that.
And then they figure out, you know, you'll get, they'll go too far or something and you'll say, do you think that's where that phrase ends? And they'll go, no, . They already know. You know, you already know. Yeah. And so, yeah, like just pointing these, these kinds of things out is, is very, very helpful. Absolutely.
Yeah.
Stephanie: And I will say that along with the singing in practice. Along with that comes the silence in practice and just not feeling like you have to play your instrument all the time. Molly Gebrian, who was one of our guests in, what was it, season one or season two? I can't remember. She's fantastic. She's a neuroscientist.
She's a violist. She, um, is going to be teaching at NEC now. You just moved over there. She was at the University of Arizona. Um, anyway, she talked to us about practice and about how the brain processes information and what's the best, what are the best practices for practice, so to speak. And one of the things she said that really stuck with me is that your brain needs silence in order to process.
And this is like a microcosm of what happens when we sleep, right? We sleep. Our brain processes everything that happened over the day. We make connections, we recharge, blah, blah, blah. While you are practicing, you're in your practice room and you've just done something three to five times. It's imperative that you take at least 10 seconds to just stand there like a zombie.
Because your brain is not going to learn from you iterating the same thing 20 times in a row. That, that was an old concept of how we learn. It is not how the brain learns and makes new connections. It needs that silence. So working that time in to just do absolutely nothing, stare into space for 10 seconds.
every once in a while is going to make things better for you too.
Liz: Yeah, I, uh, I just want to jump on this too and just kind of like put that extra button on how brain science has transformed the way we see practice. And there are many people out there doing great work. Molly Gevrian actually has a degree in neuroscience.
Neuroscience. So she was able to combine her knowledge of what the brain is actually doing with her viola pedagogy. And it is incredible to witness. There's another fantastic, fantastic teacher out there named Susanna Klein. She's a violinist at VCU down here in Richmond, Virginia. And, um, she, Actually, many adult learners may know Susanna already because she does offerings for adult learners, um, but just what I've learned from her about practice techniques, you know, if you're, if you're an intermediate student, you're trying to learn how to play something with dexterity a little faster, that the approach is not always So, um, Start with the metronome really slow and work your way up because that actually doesn't train you to do the thing you need to do in that moment.
Yep. And how many different approaches you can take. And again, you know, we, we talk about this a lot, but her whole concept is that she wants people to feel a sense of joy, a sense of efficiency and a sense of empowerment and practice. And if we all approached it that way, it would make it far less overwhelming, I think, than, you know, our standard, my feelings about it from when I was a kid and going like, I gotta lock myself in my room and practice this Don Juan passage for four hours, you know, like it's, it's, it's just different, you know.
Stephanie: It's play. Yeah. It's play and experimentation. Yeah. And, um, yeah, so Susanna was also on our podcast, so. There's an episode all with her talking about her techniques, but one of my favorite ones, bringing it back to going, um, trying to work up something to a faster, let's 16th note passage, is playing it backwards.
Yep. I love that. Yeah. So it's
Liz: so effective. It's instantly effective.
Stephanie: I, and why? Who knows why that would work? Because when we read, we read from left to right, always in music. There's never a time when we read the other way. So why does it work that our brain can process the same notes in reverse order?
And you, it doesn't, doesn't even, you don't even have to do strictly backwards. You could do like skipping every other note backwards. You could do skipping every other note forwards, and your brain is still learning something from that.
Liz: Well, the way, the way that it was described, at least Susanna has described it, is that our brains are like, everything can be kind of, Um, equated to like the way a computer works and the way a computer processes.
There's they, they, nothing is like as linear as, as left to right. It's all over the place. It's under, under upside down and left to right and right to back and, and all of these things. And this is the power of the silence as Stephanie was talking about. It's our brain does the organizing for us. So if we only provided that one pathway of left to right.
it's impossible for our brain to get all the pieces of information that it needs. And that is just, yeah, I mean, I don't know. We could geek out about brain science for like another hour. I love it so much. It's changed so much about, personally, and I think for everybody who gets into this kind of like discipline, it changes everything about the way you approach practice because I don't, you don't have to spend.
This, this, you know, drudge of hours and hours and hours and hours. You can be efficient, and you can get things done in a much more effective way, and that makes you feel like you can actually accomplish something, you know? It's amazing.
Julia: I'd love to listen to those episodes, and I'm going to recommend them in my studio as well. so if you guys could send me the links after, I'll, I'll link it in the show notes. But yeah, that's, I never heard that actually about the silence in the practice room and it makes so much sense. I think through trial and error, we've all kind of internalized what works for, for us, over time.
And I don't know. Definitely do find myself doing that in, in a different way. Maybe, , ever since becoming a mom, obviously time is more limited and my practice is just like sprinkled in throughout the day. Very different than how I was, you know, growing up where I would just practice for two hours in a row and just try to get all, all these things that you're saying like slow metronome work.
Um, and I find that I just learn so much quicker now and I don't know if it's just because I'm more efficient because I've been doing it for, you know, 25 years or just because my brain has time to internalize everything. I bet it's a combination. Totally.
Liz: Yeah. I do think there's something to the 10, 000 hours.
There's something to that. I mean that, that is a, that's also, it's like cumulative over time, right? But you can get more done more quickly. I wish we'd all known about these tactics when we were learning our instruments. Yeah, 100%.
Julia: One of the many advantages of starting now, internet access, and, you know, just to follow that a little bit, it reminds me of, I don't know how, if you guys have experienced this, I'm sure you have as performers, but when you're at the point of learning a piece and you're at like the 90, 85% mark of it.
Like you can kind of play it in tune and in time beginning to end, but it's like not quite polished yet. I always find that's the hardest, like the last 10 percent to push in a piece. And there's just something about a time element where you have to put that piece away for a little bit and you come back to it and then magically a lot of those things have gotten figured out and just starts to to polish up on its own.
And it only works if you've polished If you just go off on vacation and don't do anything and you haven't put in the work, it won't work. But, um, yeah, I, I wonder if that's related to if there's like a scientific backing for that. Oh, for
Stephanie: sure.
Julia: Um,
Stephanie: so Molly talks about this too. There's a style of practice called interleaved practice.
Have you heard of this? I have not. Um, yeah. So we are often in practice, we get into these routines where you practice your etude or you practice your scales and you practice your etude and then you're like, okay, now I'm ready to practice my piece. Or even within a piece, you start at the beginning, you play through until you make a mistake, you work on that mistake, you go back to the beginning, you play through until you make the mistake.
Well, Um, what she says interleave practice is when you start at the beginning and you practice something and then you work on whatever that issue is, you leave it for a little bit. You go and practice something else. Maybe you start at the end, maybe you start at the end, third of it, you know, after the development or whatever, and you practice that for a while and then you go back to that place that you worked on before and you revisit that.
Mm hmm. And. That helps consistency because you're actually practicing being able to do it at, um, at the moment instead of, okay, in context, after I've done it five times, I can play this. So interleaved practice is just basically mixing it up, coming back to things, going etude after you've actually played your piece.
And you work on something from there that you were working on when you were working on it. So kind of practicing the things out of order, but randomly.
Liz: Totally. I have a thing I do with my students that I actually assign them in this way. So let's say I have a student who is working on a Wolfheart etude.
And you know, when you first get into that book for some students, that's a lot. It's a lot. You know. And a line, uh, one line is a phrase, but there's like 12 lines they've got to learn. Um, always, you know, in those first couple exercises, we know that they get to the middle, it gets real gnarly, and then that's where they're making the most mistakes.
And then they come back in the next week, and they can play the front, and they can play the back, and then they get to the middle, and it's still a struggle. I often will assign them, okay. Tomorrow, you're going to do these two lines, then the next day, you're going to do these two lines. Like I'm very specific about it for this exact reason.
And I think varying up your practices is like another huge, huge benefit. And in, in a way, if you think about it, it's just like another aspect of this sort of quote randomization that you're doing to your brain in order for your brain to have more pieces of the puzzle to put together for itself. Yes. I also.
Think. Performing is really important. So even if you are playing the thing for one other person or recording it for yourself, that's a huge part of getting that last 10 percent because You can, you can be in that insulated mode until you, until you get out there and play it. And then when you play it for somebody else, you have to keep, you have to keep going ideally, right?
And so it does force you to kind of like, get over some of those things that we get stuck on. Um, yeah, sometimes there's no substitute for that. So.
Julia: Yeah, that's it sounds like there are so many resources now for for practice and it's really not a one size fits all. There are some people that are really type A and they need the, you know, the chart with to check off everything that and that works for them.
I'm, you know, a little bit in between. I like to have that structure to start off with, and then I generally don't do anything that's on my list, but at least I have somewhere to start. But it sounds like, uh, you know, and how you were, you were sharing also about how you practice, Liz, that it's, you have to find what for, what works for you.
And for those of you that don't have the musical background that are coming into it now, you have so much freedom, uh, because of, you know, you can do your own research and just try different things and see what, what resonates, what is the most fun. And if it's fun, it's generally going to, to be more effective too, because you're not going to get bored and lose focus.
I am going to be studying that episode and seeing how much I can, uh, implement in my studio in the coming weeks, because Uh, the, the jumping back and forth that, what did you, what was it called? Inter Interleaved practice. Interleaved practice. Again, something that I think I do naturally, but I had no idea that there was a word and a method and like scientific backing to.
So I'm sure there's a whole bunch of other things. I'm excited to give that a listen.
Stephanie: Yeah. This is good because it kind of reminds me of these things too, as we talk about them. It's like, oh, I should really go back to that. Because after a while, you know, you get all these tools in your tool belt, you forget what tools you have.
Yeah, that's true. Because you're used to using the same ones over and over again because they work. But in the instance where something doesn't work, you have to have some, something in reserve to try, you know, some bag of tricks, so.
Julia: That's what I think teaching is really good for when you are playing and practicing.
Like something will come up in a lesson, I'll be like, oh yeah, I should probably do that too. I don't know if you guys can relate. Oh, yes. Yes. Yes.
Liz: Oh, my teaching has 100 percent made me a better practicer because I find myself communicating to my students the things that will help them, and I know they'll help them, and I don't necessarily do them myself.
Guilty.
Julia: Do as I say, don't do as I do. That's right.
Liz: If any of my students decide to listen to this, please, please, You know, don't hold it against me. To be fair, they probably already know this about me. So
Stephanie: Hey, we're all works in progress. That's
Liz: right. Oh my goodness.
Julia: All right. Well, before we wrap it up, I know you already shared so much valuable advice.
But if you could say something to maybe the, let's aim it towards like the late beginner, early intermediate student. Do you have anything to, um, just to add to help them get, get through those challenges that everyone kind of, there's like a wall around their like Suzuki book, early Suzuki book four, you know.
Stephanie: Um, yep. I'm trying to remember what's in that one. It's in that Suzuki book. On the violin. Oh, okay.
Julia: Well, we'll make it open ended advice. Yes. I don't have a violist I listen to.
Stephanie: What I would say is that there's a reason why you got into this. And to keep that really safe in your heart. Because there are a lot of things that could be very discouraging.
Where you see setbacks. Yes. But to keep that fire, that love burning in your heart for the, you know, the reason why you started, it's really important to feed that fire. So even if it's not practicing, I'm sorry, teachers, but even if it's not practicing what you're assigned that week,
Julia: play something
Stephanie: that you love, play along to the radio, play whatever.
you know, jazz standards that you love. Find something that keeps that fire kind of stoked in your heart. The reason why you started.
Liz: Yeah,
Stephanie: that's, yeah, that's perfect. Perfect
Julia: advice.
Liz: I am, I'll, I, I agree with all of that so much. And I also think, um, just to kind of tie it to our own experience as professionals.
There are times where we're not very joyful about what we're doing either. And there are various reasons for that. Um, for me, you know, I work, I work really diligently to kind of craft my career in a way where I don't feel like this anymore. Because, to be totally honest, like, What we do for a living, we, we don't get paid enough to be miserable doing it.
Like it's just not worth it. If, if we're not joyful about it or not having fun, then it's probably time to move on. And I've made difficult decisions many, many times in my career to leave things because I don't find them joyful anymore, even though I feel like I should perhaps. Um, so to kind of tie this in, I think, you know, the joy is the most important part and.
If it's not joyful, then the question is like, why and how to find it. So if it's like Steph said, finding something else to play, you know, you're struggling with something you're working on, find something easy to play or go to a concert. Um, you know, watch somebody else play and be re inspired and in the process.
Um, and I think collaboration is really, really important.
Julia: And
Liz: even if you are an intermediate beginner, you know, you can still, there are duet books at any level and you can still find people to do that kind of thing with. You can also, there's so much stuff online now. There are community groups you can join.
There's like discussions to be had and workshops online. And there's just so many different ways to, um, uh, re inspire yourself that go outside of your practice room that may then get you, because I just think mindset is everything. And if you're coming at it from, Oh man, that's right. I, I love that. Oh, I really want to learn how to do that.
Then you're feeling motivated to go into the practice room and try to figure that problem out. Whereas if you just get yourself in that vacuum, then you're kind of like, you can't see anything outside of it, you know? Um, and that's probably true at. Any level at any age, you know, um, for younger, for younger kids, it's, it's not as easy for them to see, you know, we have to really guide them in that direction.
But for our adult learners, um, yeah, just finding inspiration. I think that's really, really important. I have had to do that many times over in my life as a professional. Um, and it has only made me a better player. So
Julia: 100 percent I think all professional musicians have felt the exact same humps. It's just we kept on going to a certain level, but thank you so much.
That was such great advice. I know that this is going to really resonate with listeners and I Highly recommend checking out the Musician Centric Podcast. , even if you're not at a professional level, you're going to get a lot of behind the scenes insight as to what careers look like as freelance musicians and various other hats that you may wear as a musician.
And obviously there's a lot of practical advice too that you can use at any point of your, uh, violin slash viola journey, practice strategies, things that you can apply right away. So please give that a listen. I will be linking it in the description and thank you so much for joining me. Thank you. Thanks for having us.
And that's it. For this episode. I hope you enjoyed it. If you did I would appreciate if you could leave a rating or review for violin class, wherever you get your podcasts. That's the easiest way to support the show is free and it helps me to reach a bigger audience.
I'll be back in a couple of weeks. This time with a solo episode has been a little while since I've had one of those. All about things that you should be doing every day in your violin practice session. So happy practicing, and I will catch you guys at the next one.